But, I still think you missed my point. If you want the cost of the service included in your bill already, the overall cost of your meal will go up compared to what you pay now, since wait staff is paid like $3/hour right now (w/tips added on) compared to a “flat rate” (w/service included) of probably at least $10/hour. The customer will pay for the increase in any wages.

I do understand your point, though, in that people shouldn’t be half-assing their jobs in the first place. I’m not arguing with your frustration in the incentive-based approach; I’m just saying that you’re going to pay the same in the end, if the rules of the game change to a “flat rate.” At least to me, if someone does half-ass their service, I’m in control of how much I have to pay for it, instead of it being automatically included in the food prices (which is one reason why I can’t stand it when restaurants add the tip on the bill for parties of six or more b/c the server usually winds up being lazy since they know they’re getting the tip anyway).

And I read all the comments, that’s why I have to respond to them.

In your example above, with the meal with tip and more expensive meal w/out tip, there’s a difference of about $2.50. What was the point of that exercise? I was expecting something like $10-20 difference, but you couldn’t make the math work. Which proves my point – I’m paying about same total money, but with increased food prices the waiters are getting paid more and not dependent on tips to make a living. Surely that’s a more stable system all around?

What is truly important, and what I totally intend on teaching my children, is that your performance in a job should not depend on your salary or tips, it should depend on having pride in what you’ve chosen to do with your life at that point.

If for one minute you think I shouldn’t believe EXPECTED tipping is anything but a retroactive bribe to the waiters not to spit in my food, you’re wrong. Because that’s what it is – a promise of money at the end of the meal to ensure they give you service that you should otherwise expect.

Now there are millions of waiters and waitresses out there that will do just fine whether they expect a tip or not – that’s their nature to be nice and service-oriented, and will do their best all the time. It should be that way for everyone, all the time. And they should be paid fully for their work, not dependent on the customer to make up the difference.

If you go out to O’Charley’s now, and get yourself a $45 dinner for you and your wife, and then tip the standard (which is sad) 15%, you’re paying an overall price of about $52 for that meal, right? Well, with tax added, I estimate it to be a total of about $55, actually. So there’s that.

Ok, now add that 15 – 20% onto the cost of your meal instead. (Actually, I’m gonna add 20% on, overall, because that is DEFINITELY what the restaurants would to in order to manage salaries and overhead for paying servers a base salary that doesnt include tips. It just is.) That you then get TAXED on. I’m counting two $10 entrees in that $45, along with additional $3 for salads or soup to start your meal with, and then about $18 for drinks, assuming that you either have a bottle of wine, or a couple of beers each with your food. So instead of $10, those entrees now cost $12 each. And the salads go up to $3.75. And the drinks go up to about $5.50 each. Now your dinner, before tax, costs $53.50. Now you get taxed at an approximate 7.5% rate, and you add THAT on, and you get a dinner that costs you about $57.50.

But thank GOD you didn’t have to TIP anyone. You know, out of GUILT. (Which is just about the silliest thing I’ve ever heard, of, I’m sorry. You have children, don’t you? Gah. ::shaking head:: Please don’t teach them this malarky you’ve come up with about how you feel when it comes to service in restaurants. You just do NOT know what you’re talking about, dude.)

Look at Disney. It’s part of the corporate culture from the top down for employees to think of themselves as “cast members” providing a magical experience for their guests. It’s part of their job requirement to be cheerful, happy, accommodating, helpful and smiling (unless they’re working the Haunted Mansion, in which case they’re supposed to be dour and depressing). Regardless, that’s part of their job and most of them do it very well. It’s not dependent on me giving them a tip to ensure they treat me well. To suggest that if waiters would treat a customer indifferently if they were only making minimum-ish wage and without tips is an indictment on the whole culture of the restaurant industry and one that’s apparently been allowed to develop for many, many years.

I really, really don’t mind paying more for my food if I’m not guilted into paying a tip to a waiter for rendering a quality level of service that should be a given in the first place. But I’m also saying that, judging by the relative overhead, restaurants ought to be able to pay the waiters a good wage and still make a profit without substantially raising their prices.

“If you can provide some real world numbers to compare typical gross revenue vs. expenses for each type of establishment and show how a restaurant really can’t afford to pay its wait stuff a full wage, I’ll be happy to believe you. But until then, I’m standing by my assumptions.” My husband was the assistant kitchen manager at a restaurant locally here in the Kansas City area for over 4 years. So that’s not a problem at all! Percentage of markup is usually cost X’s 3 in a standard family style establishment. So they generally are aiming for a 31% markup on the menu items sold to the public. That markup is there to help pay for the restaurant overhead…from the rent, to the gas it takes to fire that food you’re eating, to the salary paid to the cook who made it for you, the chef who runs the kitchen, the manager that oversees the waitstaff, and the manager that runs the overall restaurant.

Look at the server as being like an independent contractor. They’re there as a supplemental factor to help the restaurant sell their food…but they are separate from what the back of the house is involved in…which is what soaks up much of that money you’re paying for those burgers or salads you’re munching on thanks to them making it for you. Try thinking of the front of the house (i.e. the servers and the managers – usually 2 of them, depending on the size of the staff/establishment) as a totally separate entity from the back of the house. The back of the house uses all that mark up to keep the food going out to the table, and the restaurant running smoothly. (i.e. paying rent, utilities, for furniture upkeep, and that sort of thing.) The front of the house is there to help the back of the house get it done with a style that makes the customers want to return again and again and again. Neither of them can exist without each other. But they are definitely vastly different entities. I hope this has helped some…sorry I got heated earlier. But your suggestion to mark up food even more isn’t based in reality as I see it. And that’s likely because I have a much closer relationship with the restaurant industry, having been a server myself before, and also due to being married to a chef.

No, I don’t want them to add 20% automatically to my bill for a “tip” – I don’t like when they do that now with large parties. I would almost rather they raise prices to compensate for low salaries. BUT I’d like to know why they can’t pay salaries and charge roughly the same for the food and service without losing money, the same way McDonald’s has done it forever.

If you can provide some real world numbers to compare typical gross revenue vs. expenses for each type of establishment and show how a restaurant really can’t afford to pay its wait stuff a full wage, I’ll be happy to believe you. But until then, I’m standing by my assumptions.

It is still an apples to apples comparison – I come inside, someone takes my order, someone brings me my order, usually I eat there (but sometimes I take it to go), I give someone my money and they might give me change. Whether they do any of that at my table or at a counter, and in whatever order, is irrelevant. The only differences are in the price (and quality) of the food and how many people are working there.

If McD’s sells W burger/fries/drink combos a day at $X, then after subtracting Y expenses (wholesale food, utilities, salary) it should come out to a reasonable Z profit. For O’Charley’s that sells W meals for total of $X (likely 5 times what Bic Macs cost) then after subtracting their Y (the higher expenses of the food, utilities, LOW salaries) it should make a higher proportional Z profit. But if that were so, why not pay the staff up to regular wage?

And by the way, I don’t have a “blog”. I have a blog. I’ve had it for many years, and I’ve been happy with it. I don’t post as much as I used to but it gets by.

Restaurants get their produce from Sysco, where my brother in law works. Food is of better grade, not excellent but at least 3 times better than what you get at McD’s.

Also at McD’s you are not being served. You have to get your stuff at a counter. Once in a while they might bring the food out to you, but not much more beyond that. You are comparing apples and oranges here.

When I buy a good or a service, the price of the good or the service should be my small part to pay all the expenses of the owner. When I buy a CD at Target, the price of that CD should be split up to pay the supplier, the facility overhead, the utilities, the insurance and the wages of the employees. When I buy a car at a dealer, the price of that car should be split up to pay the same set of expenses.

When I buy a meal at a restaurant, the price of the food should be split up to pay all the expenses as well.

If I buy a hamburger meal at McDonalds, the price of the burger, fries and drink go in one big pot that is used to pay all the expenses. I pay nothing “extra” for the employees doing their jobs.

So why should I sit down at an O’Charley’s, pay a (more expensive already) price for my meal, but then be forced by custom and tradition to add on a 15-20% tip on top of the bill, to pay the waiters for the services the management should already be paying them for?

Proportionally speaking, the amount of money a McDonalds pulls in for a day should be similar to the money an O’Charley’s pulls in. Sure their food supply is going to be more expensive and rent/utilities might be a bit higher, but again their daily profits should be about proportionally the same. So why can sit-down restaurants not afford to pay the wait staff a regular, standard salary?

I’m not saying I don’t do it – I just don’t like it. I know that’s the way it IS but it’s not the way it SHOULD BE.

Tips ARE their salary! This is how it has always been, since the dawn of the restaurant industry! I don’t even know how to adequately respond to you, your comment was so off and, I’m sorry, ignorant. I don’t know you – and to be honest, I don’t think I’d want to – but man…pull your head out of your bum. PLEASE. Here’s a blog you might want to check out: http://waiterrant.net/ Go back and start at the beginning in April 2004. It might help you a great deal, or, if you’re as cool as I think you are, it might just keep you from ever wanting to eat out again. And on behalf of the server/former-server community, I will go ahead and thank you for your consideration of that possibility.

That’s what I pay the price on the menu for. I shouldn’t have to pay “extra” for the wait staff and cooks to do what I paid menu price for in the first place.

And yes, I understand the argument that they are not paid adequate wages and rely on tips to make up their regular income but you know, that’s not my problem. If they can’t make enough in salary, then they should look somewhere else for work. Or get the manager to pay them more and let them raise the price for the food if they have to.

I just don’t like civilized extortion and I don’t like it’s an accepted part of the culture.